M: Alright, we're on. Cool! Hey! Let's just do this! Can you introduce yourselves?
L: Uh, okay. Hi, I'm Lauren. What do you want me to say? Just general things?
M: I don't know, like whether you have dogs or cats?
L: I have no pets because my family is allergic. Well, some people in my family is allergic to like, pet fur, you know? So, cat-less, dog-less.
S: Well, my name is Schuyler Saint-Phard, and I have a golden retriever because my family is basic. And, I'm also allergic to cats and dogs, but that doesn't stop me.
L: Wow.
M: Yeah, so Lauren is a Junior?
L: Junior, Visual Arts Department.
M: And Schuyler is…?
S: Sophomore, Architecture Department.
M: And today, they have been gracious to give us some time to talk about publicity and privacy, and each of us can obviously chime in, and this is going to be an organic conversation. So let's get into it! So in our previous chat, we were talking about our artistic and creative process. But before that, you know, can you just retell us the story of what it is that you do?
L: What I do? Ummm… I would say my art practice is pretty wide-ranging. I do a little bit of everything. Photography, film, music, production, not really performance. I'm getting into sculpture now, which is hype. Im just interested in the overlaps between mediums and how the practice of art bleeds into life. Like I think it's more than a job or a major. It's like a thing that I live, and it comes out in multiple forms.
S: Well, it's a hard answer to follow. Im not as deep into my art practice as I would like to be, just because I'm so busy with my architecture stuff with my other studies. But I love to do art. I love taking pictures, I love making sculptures. I think im a creative person. When I'm bored, I like to read and make art. So that's how I pass my time, my outlet, as one might say. And I think that everyone should do art, and I don't think it's something that someone should be afraid of. I think it's something that should be embraced. I think there's a lot of fear about art, especially the people here at Princeton, because a lot of us are perfectionists, and we don't want to try to be artists for fear of failure. And I think we should all try to be artists in our day-to-day lives.
M: Just to be clear, architecture is perfect as well. Like we don't want to limit anything. And I was thinking last time we were talking about how, roughly generalizing, there is a digital and physical realm that you two dabble in and what it means to share work. So can you just talk about different mediums, physical or digital, and how it affects your thinking about distribution?
S: I can start-
M: And please talk about architecture!
L: Architecture is art, it's just really big, really big, “live-inside-of-it” art.
S: I think that people have a misconception that all architects create buildings. That's just not true. A lot of architects don't ever create a building in their lives, and a lot of architects don't want to create buildings. A lot of architects are sculptors, painters, photographers, like there's a lot of overlap. But, umm… yeah I think im more of a physical artist than a digital artist. For example, with sculpture, I just like to play with my hands and just see what happens. Like a lot of times when I look at an assignment, I just start thinking about the possibilities in the sculpture shop and mess around and… I don't know, I just like to see what happens, and it's fun for me. And yeah, I don't know where im going with this. I just fuck around and find out.
L: I feel like I'm trying to explore which artistic moments require digital and which require analog. Well not require, but I feel like I have both available to me, and I want to utilize both. I find that there are pros and cons to both analog versus digital. For example, im doing a lot of nude portraiture with a lot of people, and I found that digital seems to actually work better for me in that scenario because, like, to set up a shot, it's much quicker. Like with analog, it takes a lot more time to compose, and for the person that is being photographed, it can be awkward to sit there forever and let someone look at you for that long while you're doing this thing. So I find that digital, kind of like that quick, quick, let the movement flow, they kind of want to move their body. It doesn't feel so “being looked at.” That works for me in that scenario, whereas if I want to get a texture, like kind of spooky, old-school vibe, I'm not gonna shoot digital. Im gonna shoot analog. So that's just a photography example, but I feel like with instruments, it's the same, like it depends on what you're looking for. So yeah, I feel like my relationship with digital vs. physical is context-dependent.
M: Well, in our class, VIS208, it's about the Internet. It's about creating connections and learning about the history of the Internet as a global commons where people were originally meant to share links to documents, to post things, and to be active contributors. But you know, nowadays, sometimes we can be passive consumers of content. I guess digital art, on the surface, lends itself to much better distribution on the Internet. But how does one-? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, before we were talking about what kind of art is personal and public, regardless of medium, how do you see that playing out?
S: I personally have an Instagram account that I don't post my art on ever. And I don't have an art Instagram at all. So when I make art, it's only for myself and the people I choose to show it to. That makes it pretty intimate. I don't really know if I'm ever going to share my art super publicly, just because I feel like it's a part of my soul, and I feel like I don't need it to be judged by other people. And I don't feel the need for validation in my art because I like it. And I don't feel the need to influence people with my art. I want to keep my “influencer” persona separate from my “artist” persona. I do feel like they are two separate entities, and my “influencer” persona is my public Instagram account that anyone and their mother can follow, and that's where I will voice my opinions. But my art is something private and personal.
L: I would say for me (cough). Sorry about that.
M: (shenanigan monster noises) Oh no, we messed it up!
L: Cut it! Cut it! I would say for me, again, it's context-dependent. I did a ton of work. Some of it, I feel like I need to hold it very close and only show it to a select number of people in a non-digital fashion, so like not posting it anywhere. Whereas with other work, I feel much more keen about posting it. I would say the biggest difference, because it's new and evolving for me, would be things I can make money on I would post publicly and things that are important as far as political activism is concerned. To share work that highlights exploitation that's not covered by mainstream news or something like that, like that's where I feel more keen about making it public. So I think it just depends on what im working with. But yeah, that's where we are at.
M: This just popped into my head. Say there's a cool music playlist, and I need to study. So I need that ambiance, that atmosphere, that music that was made to get into myself. I guess there is something interesting about using publicly-available content, publicly-available things, to create a bubble for yourself. How do you see the dynamics at play when one does something like that?
S: Are you on collaboration? I don't understand your question.
M: Yeah, maybe I should have rephrased it differently. So the theme is privacy vs. publicity, right? For example, you're eating, and you want to listen to a podcast, using something publicly-available that's posted-?
L: Oh, to go into your private space? Oh, that's such an interesting concept. Yeah, I feel like I do that all the time. Like if I feel really overwhelmed, like I want to hear these strangers talk to me in my ears so I can chill the fuck out. It's interesting to go to public things for personal reasons. Like if im making a video that's personal to me, I can go to archival footage that's publicly available to create something personal… yeah, that's interesting.
M: Did that make sense?
S: Yeah, it made sense. It just doesn't resonate with me, but it makes sense. My perspective is that I don't have a wealth of knowledge about art, so I don't really see myself taking public inspiration for my private work, like in terms of art or music actually. I don't know how this is coming across, but when I am working, I am really inside of my brain and my body, like even if I'm listening to background, I don't really need any motivation, any music to work. I just do it. Does that make sense?
M: I think so. You know, some people could be listening to this and be thinking: “look at these kids talking about art, talking about abstract stuff. Wow, exploring feelings, exploring the human condition. That's so…” what's the word, “in the sky.” (L: esoteric). How do you (S: put it in layman's terms?) say that it's not esoteric, that it has practical implications?
S: I think people view science as legitimate, but they don't view art as legitimate, and I question that. I think it's just another subject, another way of looking at life, and I think you can unlock it if you open your mind to it. It's just really your choice whether you are open to another worldview.
L: Yeah, I think if you get caught up on the formal analyses of stuff and like what this artist is trying to say and yadda yadda, it can seem like a foreign language. But I think the process of making art is actually intuitive. As a kid, you build stuff, make forts, and color stuff. It's like a very innate desire to make things, and art is fundamentally about creating. You know, you're just fucking around. You explore physical things that trigger things within you emotionally that you could talk about that might seem more “in the sky.” but I think fundamentally it's just play, really. Creativity is just play. I don't know…
M: Do you guys have any questions? Like it's not a one-way street or anything.
S: Your questions are really good. They're interesting. They're thinkers, for sure.
M: No, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this because people here are always so busy-
S: Yeah, no, I think there's always time to make time. That's my opinion.
M: I want to go back to our last chat about private vs. public art and how I remember you, Schuyer telling how you want your work to be acknowledged, but you don't necessarily want you to be acknowledged.
S: I think it would be cool, I think it would be swag if people are like, “that's cool art” when referring to my art. But I don't feel the need to have my name on a building.
M: Do you think the Internet can facilitate that kind of pursuit? You can put this stuff out there, but you can also maintain some anonymity.
S: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think you can.
L: I would say the Internet is good for that stuff, actually for having a bit of separation between your person and your art person. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate question, but I think like if someone saw my work and it moved them, or they found it compelling, then I would be happy with that. But I don't need my name associated with that. Or like if a piece that I did on the corruption that happened in the train crash in East Palestine, Ohio. If that went viral and was widely circulated, I would be hyped. But not because my work is out there. It's like, oh, people are finally seeing this fucking corruption, you know? More about sharing the work and the message, not about I want to get famous. I don't really care about that. Now, I don't mind having some money, though, because money is good for survival.
M: Would you guys say that, umm… how would you guys describe your egos?
S: You're gonna have to be more specific.
M: Yeah, in the sense that… I guess everybody wants to have esteem, acknowledgment, wants to be well-regarded. Let's say an athlete wants to win a championship, wants to be at the top. Whatever the craft, people want to be held in high esteem.
L: I feel like I can speak to this. I feel like my ego is always walking a very fine line; it's never fixed. It's always toggling between it's a little confident and it's a little too insecure. I feel like I make my best art when I'm in that middle ground, when I'm confident but not too confident. I feel that connection, relationship, is important. Like you said, it's good to have esteem, to feel like you're contributing, to feel like you're appreciated, to feel like you're good at what you do. If you go over that, that's not good. If you go under that, that's not good either. So I do as many things as I can to stay in that middle ground. Things flow better in that state.
S: For me, I don't that much time thinking about my ego personally. But if I had to answer your question, I would say that I do what I do, and I love what I do, and if I get recognition that's awesome, and if I don't, I don't really care. Because I know that I'm doing what I love.
M: I guess the ego and the Internet, it's like a dial-
L: It inflates and deflates, yeah.
S: I used to have a really bad relationship with social media, but I think as I have continued to grow up and go to therapy and work on myself, I realize social media is just a construct, as is everything else in society. I'm not gonna wave my fist at it. Social media is what you make of it, and if you put all of your self-worth into social media you're going to end up hurt. And if you don't, then you can take power over it and use it as a tool that it's meant to be.
M: Is it possible to have, what's the word, a “low” ego? (S: Do you mean humble?) That could be the best word for it. But still, be like the most visible person on Earth?
S: I think it would be hard. Because if people are constantly telling you that you are God's gift to humanity or you are the coolest person in the world, it's gonna go to your head.
L: I think the best artists are the ones can do both, or at least it's close. They are very publicly seen, but they do what they can to keep themselves grounded. Like Kendrick Lamar, for example… there's another person but I can't remember. The point is that I think it's possible, but it's really, really fucking hard because the more you know that you're center-stage the more it screws with you. And also the more eyes, the more criticism, which whiplashes you the other way too because people are telling you that you suck for whatever reason or bullshit. That can alter your sense of self. It's tough to be under the limelight. But I'm not famous so I can't tell you. But that's not the goal.
S: It's not the goal. I just want to be happy. (L: Survival is the goal for me.) I just want to live a happy and healthy life.
M: You guys are noble. Not too many of those left.
[Laughs and coughs]
S: My allergist canceled my fucking appointment today. Literally, I have to wait another week. It's bad. (M: Wait, what?)
S: (TDLR: I'm unwell.)
[Laughs and giggles]
M: Okay, let's steer it back. I think a good sign-off question is sometimes we talk about, in a general sense, some high-level things. Let's go down to the ground-level, everyday-life experience. It's not like every day you go into the office and it's “Eureka!” like you're the best version of yourself or make the best work. So can you just walk us through a day in your life?
S: I can go first. I wake up. I think to myself, this is a good day to be alive. And then I go to class. I learn, I'm privileged, so I learn at a very high level, and I'm very grateful for that. And if I'm gonna do that day, I go into the sculpture shop, I think and experiment and try to make cool art. If I don't, then I'm a little disappointed, but I'm also not because that's just the nature of it. And then I do it all again the next day.
L: I normally wake up with a lot of racing thoughts, like ideas or fragments of sentences. So I try to sit down for 10 minutes, and if shit comes into my head, then I just write it down. So just like quick sketches or ideas… I just sit on the floor with a notebook and my pencil and with my eyes closed and legs crossed if something comes to me, then I write it down. So then I'll do that for a while. I have noticed that the thoughts go from mundane to creative ideas and once I have gone through the creative bullshit then I'll keep going on. So then I go swimming. Normally I try to listen to a song that I'm really into, or a couple, and then I just study them. I just listen to the production, like I hear the hats coming in, this effect on this, it's like free lessons if you just listen to it. Swimming helps me get into my body, like the breathing, the rhythm, it feels so good. It's like an idea-generating process. Morning is idea-generation time. And then I get home. Normally I try to do work at that point. It's just editing, screwing around, seeing what works, writing weird poems, just playing around. And then I'll go learn about art for a while. And then at night I do a lot of emotional work, I would say? Like my intention when I sit down and work like, “Okay, I feel a lot, and I need to create something to process that.” So it doesn't really matter what that thing is, like sometimes I will be making a Photoshop or music or whatever, but the intention is to get what I feel and neutralize. Sometimes I feel like I haven't gotten it, and I'll be frustrated when I go to bed like, “Fuck, that wasn't it.” Sometimes I'll be like, “Thank God that's what I needed.” It depends on the day. But I love the days where it's like, “Okay, that's it. I'm good.” That was really long, but I always think of art as filtering.
M: Any final thoughts?
L: (TDLR: Minh is a fun guy.)
S: Go do art! Don't be afraid! (L: Paint out a wall!)
M: And on that beautiful and hopeful note, we signing off! Ciao ciao!
About the Artists:
Lauren Olson: i would qualify myself right now as an experimental multimedia artist. i love that art allows me to process life, make meaningful connections, and engage my curiosity. Check out Lauren's portfolio
Schuyler Saint-Phard: I'm from Denver, Colorado. I study architecture and visual arts at Princeton University. I love to read, snowboard, backpack, and make art. Sculpture is my favorite medium because it empowers me express myself physically.